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Petition of the 2000: A Fanboy’s Response
Across the galaxy, a small band of Rebels have banded together in an effort to stand against what they perceive as a threat to the Star Wars continuity. As they see it, this threat, primarily in the form of The Clone Wars animated series, represents a “relaxed attitude” in the integrity of the franchise. You can read more about the Petition of the 2000 here. Special thanks to TheForce.net for letting the fans know.
To best explain the viewpoint of George Lucas, it’s best to look at this in his own words. As sited in a 2008 interview from Total Film magazine:
- TOTAL FILM: “The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?”
- LUCAS: “They have their own kind of world. There’s three pillars of Star Wars. I’ll probably get in trouble for this but it’s OK! There’s three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I’m the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don’t always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it’s hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there’s the TV show and then there’s all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn’t have anything to do with each other. So I said, “OK, go ahead.” In the early days I told them that they couldn’t do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!”
- TOTAL FILM: “Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you’re gone?”
- LUCAS: “I’ve left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That’s because there isn’t any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn’t at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn’t come back to life, the Emperor doesn’t get cloned and Luke doesn’t get married…”
In other words, as much as the petitioning fans don’t want to hear it, continuity is whatever George Lucas says it is. Now, as I’ve mentioned here on this site and in our podcast many times before, somewhere along the lines it became popular to make George the public punching bag. No matter what he says, he’s automatically wrong to a vocal portion of the population that seems to think they’re too cool for the room. It’s time to deflate this argument at its source.
The petition states:
Since much of the enjoyment of the Star Wars universe comes from the verisimilitude of the sagaâ€â€Âthat necessary aspect of congruous historicityâ€â€Âa loss of this, whether intentional or not, creates a domino effect of contradictions, and erodes the ability for newer and older fans to confidently move forward in their support of the saga. A fictional universe where different stories controvert one another is not one that can long survive, as has been demonstrated over the years by various franchises whichâ€â€Âtaking little measure to ensure congruityâ€â€Âplummeted.
In other words, the printed material can’t be contradicted by the visual material (or vice versa) if the saga is to survive more than the 35 years it’s approaching. Is it safe to say that this is an agreed upon translation of this? If that’s the case, then one needs to look no farther than to existing franchises who have survived and thrived to this day across multimedia since before 1977.
1. Star Trek – Does anyone remember right after Star Trek III when the former crew of the Enterprise took control of the Excelsior and continued their mission, only to face down their counterparts from the Mirror Universe yet again? It seems Spock never overthrew his captain in that version as told in the comics, and there was no Enterprise-A to be had. Yet in David Mack’s novel The Sorrows of Empire, Mirror Universe Spock assassinated his captain and proceeded to control the Empire up through the timeline of Star Trek VI with the hopes of helping the Empire to fall. Or perhaps no one remembers the old Gold Key comics where the Enterprise was rocket-propelled rather than warp-capable, and a number of other technological discrepancies are sited. It seems penny ante until you acknowledge the warp drive is the entire basis of Star Trek history itself. And don’t even get me started on the timeline. Different sources site the entirety of the 23rd century for the dates of the 5-year mission. Both Captain Christopher and Khan Singh are characters firmly placed in the 20th century, yet Kirk (in the 23rd century) tells them both he’s from 200 years in their future. And while we’re at it, were the Eugenics Wars and World War III the same war? Some episodes say yes (“Space Seed”), and some say no (“The Savage Curtain”). Star Trek: The Next Generation – a later incarnation of Trek – helped to establish the continuity that was not established by the original series or films, just as The Clone Wars is doing now with our unanswered questions. Both shows proceeded with no thought to the novels or comics that stacked up in those eras.
2. DC Comics – You know the names. Superman. Batman. Wonder Woman. Green Lantern. The Flash. The list goes on and on, and all of these characters had been going for nearly 40 years when Star Wars took to screen. In this case, the printed versions come first, so it’s a reversal on the saga. Different eras see different takes on the characters. Powers are added, powers are subtracted, identities are changed, characters are changed, universes are changed or are outright destroyed. In the case of Superman specifically, most of what we know today is based on the radio program. The comics gave us Superman. The radio gave us the Daily Planet, Perry White, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, and Kryptonite. Meanwhile the movies and TV series were anything but loyal to any version that came before. Take a look at the weaponry on Michael Keaton’s Batmobile or Batwing, or his willingness to drop opponents off of bell towers or to ignite them with the Batmobile’s flamethrower. Look at the new Wonder Woman’s triple identity. And who can forget Christopher Reeve’s giant cellophane S-shield or memory-stealing super kiss? Or perhaps did anyone else notice Tom Welling’s Clark Kent blasting away at twin towers with his heat vision in the heart of Metropolis? Pop quiz: can Wonder Woman fly? 1942 says no. 1987 says yes. And today she can astrally project herself, thus rendering the point almost moot. If anything, these characters have thrived in spite of their horribly scrambled continuity problems.
3. Doctor Who – the longest-running science fiction series in history. I saved the best for last because, let’s face it, if ever a show can contradict itself, it’s Doctor Who. Such is the nature of time traveling. Consider the case of the 6th and 7th Doctor crossover companion, Melanie Bush. Go ahead, figure that out if you can. Look her up, I’ll wait. Or perhaps you’d like to explain the Weeping Angels and the complete change of rules in only their second appearance? Or how The Master got Iron Man-like superpowers and a completely new origin story – which, by the way, completely stomps all over the Big Finish Productions audio origin story for the character, to say nothing of his previous appearances. Let’s look at an early appearance, specifically the 8th Doctor’s TV movie. Did you know they hold trials on Skaro? That’s where the Daleks tried and executed the Master, then apparently allowed the Doctor to claim what was left of the body. The truth is, there are whole volumes available for purchase that discuss the discontinuity of Doctor Who. And such books don’t even take into account the novels, the comics, the audio plays, the stage productions, etc. that comprise that marketing empire. You can pretty much base a Ph.D. study on Time Lord Goofology. I’ve asked diehard fans of the Doctor to explain some of this to me. The most intelligent answer I ever got was a shrug.
So with just these handful of examples in mind, and rest assured there are others, we’re supposed to believe that The Clone Wars is undermining the integrity of Star Wars when the majority of the Expanded Universe never had consultations with George on the nature of the Force, the timelines, the history of the Jedi and Sith, etc.? No, I don’t buy it. Star Wars will be around for a long time to come because the George Lucas vision is a solid one. The EU books, comics, etc., are fun and invigorating, and they provide us with even more of what we fans want: more Star Wars. That we want more is a testament to George’s creative engine. This fan lived through the Dark Times, when there was no new material to absorb between the Ewok movies and the first appearances of the modern EU. Today we get new novels and comics every month, new Clone Wars every week during the televised season, and there are promises of new material in the immediate future. We’re lucky to have it at all. The very first Expanded Universe novel, Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, was contradicted by The Empire Strikes Back. I don’t see anyone wiping their tears over that. As near as I can tell, the straw that broke the tauntaun’s back is the death of Jedi Master Even Piell as the TV episode contradicts an EU novel that, to be honest, I can’t find anyone online that actually read it! Yet, nobody’s making waves over the first meeting of Anakin and Tarkin in these episodes, even though their first meeting is chronicled in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, a novel that virtually 85% or more of the Star Wars fan population read and enjoyed. What does this say? To me, it says the expectation of entitlement has reached an all-time high within the community of modern fandom. It’s time to stop. In the Star Wars Universe, George Lucas is the first and last word. If it doesn’t fit his story, so be it. It doesn’t change the fact that you enjoyed the novel or the comic, does it? No, it doesn’t. There’s another phrase I’m fond of saying: “vote with your dollar.” If you don’t like something, don’t buy it, don’t watch it. If you do enjoy it, buy it, watch it, share it with friends. Internet searches drive up interest, and that equates to money in this kind of machine. Money = “they’re doing something right, let’s make more of it.” As a highly opinionated and vocal fanboy with a podcast, I’m certainly as guilty as anyone of thumping the continuity bible of a given franchise. But in most cases, the creators are dead and were taken out of the loop long before it ever got truly crazy. George is still here, he’s still active, and he’s still telling the story he’s had in his head all those decades ago. For the love of the Force… enjoy the ride.
VaderFan’s got my vote on this one!
I’m just going to add my thoughts to his, because he made the point as eloquently as it will ever be made here. It doesn’t take a Wiki-Scholar to tell that there are multiverses to every franchise. That’s my ONLY fault with the Star Wars franchise. They layer the word continuity, when they should use the term multiverse. However, much like my colleague pointed out, I think an intelligent fandom should understand that written things should be taken with a grain of salt at best when it comes to what’s on screen. That goes especially when the creator of said material is involved.
I’ve said this directly on the podcast, and it still holds today. The continuity you love the best isn’t gone. It’s merely waiting for you to crack open the book or comic of your choice. Until the time when George Lucas and his LucasFilm commandos break down your door and burn your collection to ashes, it’s still there! No memories are gone! You want proof that it’s still there other than your collection? Look up the Star Wars Wiki page, or Wookiepedia, go to theforce.net, or any number of pages that talk about the EU! All of it’s right there, since it’s apparent that Clone Wars is somehow stealing it all from you. If anything, I think Clone Wars should be looked forward to each week to see if what storylines and characters from the expanded universe make it into official canon!
Look at it this way, these stories are all professional fan fictions. Yeah, I said it! These stories fill in gaps of time when you’re dying to experience something new in universe and have no other way to get it. Sorry to say it, but there it is. These stories make up a very vast universe, there’s no doubt about that. I know that I’ve enjoyed many hours of reading through various comics and books. Bottom line of this part is that George is a busy man. If you want anything NEW in Star Wars, you gotta make your call right here. Do you want him to read the books or do you want him to keep telling stories? I vote for stories myself!
To conclude, VaderFan pointed to a great deal of materials that have been changed and overlooked in various franchises. He’s correct on every last point saying that we take what’s in front of us and try to determine it as best we can, but we can’t everything published by others as genuine continuity. If that were the case, then I want to know why I don’t see more X-Men in my Star Trek? Not that I really want it, but it makes a point. If you don’t believe it happened, then look up the comics and the Next Gen novel that came out. I also read a ton of fan fiction that I think explains things in other franchises WAY better than what it was presented. Matter of fact, I’VE written fan fiction that I think is WAY better than what was presented. Anyone gonna petition for me? No? Well, ya know what? That’s okay. I’ll leave it to the experts. maybe if one day I’m actually good enough, and the right editor doesn’t shoot himself while trying to read my writing, then I can get my chance and professional fan fiction too. I’d love to write a Star Wars book!
Lucas cannot have it both ways. He wants to sell fans books and comics, which from the beginning was promoted as THE continuation of the films, NOT as a possible continuation until Lucas changes his mind. He also wants to ignore the books and comics. That is not ethically sound, nor does it show respect for those who’ve given him their time, energy and hard-earned money for decades based on the premise his company put forth of a single-continuity.
Also, you’re incorrect when you say that the EU had no input from Lucas. He had direct contact with Roy Thomas and Archie Goodwin in the early days of Marvel. He had direct input into the nature of the Force and the history of the Jedi and Sith during the early days of Dark Horse’s Tales of the Jedi series. He specifically requested that Anakin Solo be killed in the New Jedi Order series so that there wasn’t confusion between him and Anakin Skywalker. He put Aayla Secura in the films and mentioned Quinlan Vos. He changed the name of Had Abaddon to Coruscant to keep consistency with the EU. These are just the more well-known instances. There are others.
Lucas set a pattern that was consistent with the message that HIS company routinely promoted, that the books and comics and newspaper strips, etc., are licensed, official extensions of his universe, not fan-fic. Lucas himself wrote the introduction to the reissue of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye (which, by the way, is not contradicted by TESB; it actually complements it, and Obi-Wan’s line to Luke as he’s leaving Dagobah appears to be a direct reference to the climax of that book) stating his unequivocal embrace of other authors contributing to the expanded universe. In fact, when Lucas envisioned nine or twelve films (which he later denied, but that’s another story), that was exactly what he intended, different directors/writers contributing to each film, with him taking the first and last.
It’s only now that he’s changed his tune towards the EU, and fans are rightly upset since many invested quite a LOT of money, time and energy based on the premise that they were part of an overall saga. No one expected perfection. There’s been bumps along the road for years, but Lucasfilm regularly fixed continuity problems, so that the universe functioned as a living history.
As regards the franchises you’re referring to, Star Trek was dead until the recent film, and the books will likely never return to the numbers or status they once had until Richard Arnold took control and put a policy of incongruity in place. DC and Marvel have been seeing a steady drop in numbers for years. As someone who used to manage a comic-book store, there’s no question that a large part of the reason is fan disgust at the lack of a stable, believable continuity. As regards Dr. Who, I can’t speak to that situation save to say that it’s an exception to the rule, for which the death (or diminishment) of numerous franchises demonstrates.
The petition isn’t about making George Lucas a “punching bag,” but a polite request. You seem to say that a creator of any art or franchise can do no wrong, and should receive no criticism, which is absurd. It’s not inappropriate for fans to vocally say “We are your customers. We expect higher standards.” That’s not a prima-donna attitude; a linear, congruous history is a realistic expectation from any storytelling medium, whether it’s a TV series, film series or literature.
If GL had these stories in his head all these years, he should’ve communicated it to his company so that they could ensure the contrary ideas weren’t published. It’s highly unlikely at any rate that he did. Filoni’s presents him with the current continuity, based on the info in Lucasfilm’s holocron, which keeps detailed info, and Wookieepedia. Lucas chooses to accept or reject that history. There’s no reason a character should be killed off years prior to when he dies in an officially published, NY-Times bestselling novel. That could’ve been any Jedi, and if it had to be Piell, he could’ve been left wounded, or made to seem he died. There were ways around it, which is why fans were particularly incensed. Tarkin and Anakin meeting prior to the novel Dark Lord can be reconciled (which is why fans grumbled, but gave no outcry). And coming on the heels of the rewriting of Mandalorian history, which cost fans the talents of Karen Traviss, who was still in the middle of writing critically-acclaimed SW novels, is egregious, particularly as that series is now left off with several cliffhangers.
I don’t like it when fans come down hard on Peter Jackson, Steven Spielberg, J.J. Abrams, Joss Whedon or George Lucas for ridiculous nonsense. But it’s right to cry foul when you’re sold a bill of goods, no matter who the artist is. Lucas didn’t give fans the book series he just rendered null and void; he sold it to us on the basis that it was the extension of his universe. If it doesn’t stop, fans will eventually wise up, as will the better authors who will not write in a universe where their work has no import (which is what happened to ST post-Richard Arnold), and a bad reputation can have a lasting and powerful negative effect to even the largest companies.
When you have a fanbase and customer base who’ve supported you loyally for years, you do what’s in your power to treat them with respect. This petition is merely reminding Lucas to do that once again.
If I may interject a few thoughts of my own here as well…
From the forward of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye: “It wasn’t long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more then a single film could hold. As the saga of Skywalkers and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at least nine films to tell-three trilogies-and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story.
After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story-however many films it took to tell-was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories that I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga.”
This isn’t an admission that this is canon. What this is saying is that he allowed someone to write a story to entertain the masses in a time when he was busy with other things. If what I’ve read is true, then this was supposedly a back up just in case Star Wars didn’t make bank and they had a low budget sequel ready. When it did make the cash it needed, they moved on to bigger and better things. Still, the book was around and could still be enjoyed by people.
Even if this weren’t true, and it wasn’t some low-budget movie ready to be made, it was an easy way to keep Star Wars in the mind of a public that was clamoring for more from the Galaxy Far, Far Away. This is the mass marketing genius at work here. He’s making a ton of money off the deal, but he knows that he doesn’t have to follow it to the letter because it’s still his universe to play with.
From Heir to the Empire: “Here is the science fiction publishing event of the year: the exciting continuation of the legendary Star Wars saga. Picking up where the movie trilogy left off, Heir to the Empire reveals the tumultuous events that take place after the most popular series in motion-picture historyâ€â€Âmasterfully told by Hugo Award-winning author Timothy Zahn.
In spring 1977 a film called Star Wars was releasedâ€â€Âand a cultural phenomenon was born. Its epic story, about a young man named Luke Skywalker, whose destiny was to save the galaxy from conquest, caught the imaginations of millions and broke all box-office records. Today Star Wars and its sequels, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, are acknowledged as the most popular series in movie history, and rank among the top ten films of all time.
The three Star Wars films form a spectacular saga of bold imaginations and high adventure. But the stories of its characters did not end there. Now for the first time, Lucasfilm Ltd., producer of the Star Wars movies, has authorized the continuation of this beloved story. In an astounding three-book cycle, Timothy Zahn continues the tale of Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, and the other characters made world famous by Star Wars, as he brilliantly expands upon George Lucas’s stunning vision, “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.”
I can see where people think this means that they’re adding this to canon. What this translate out to me is that Lucasfilm told them that they could write some stories that didn’t interfere with the original trilogy. So it’s a literal continuation of the storyline as told by Timothy Zahn. Meaning that Lucasfilm gave him the license to write a book based on their materials and this goes for the stuff they’re currently writing now! This, in no way, says that they’re putting into official G-Level canon. It’s like me writing a fan fiction of Stargate. Yeah, I’m continuing off the story as I know it. It doesn’t make it right. Even if the powers that be gave me license to do it, that doesn’t mean for one minute that when the next movie or TV show based off the franchise comes out that it’ll be my story that gets made. I accept that, but it was fun writing it while I had the chance. Hopefully someone enjoyed reading it, that’s all anyone writing licensed material can ask or hope for.
Not once did anyone say that George shouldn’t be held accountable for mistakes he’s made. When there’s genuine reason to do so, then it’s within everyone’s right to do so. I’ll go one further, if this petition is how people feel they want to express themselves; go for it! Just realize that what you’re fighting for right now is telling a man that he’s got to make his universe into YOUR vision of it. Your meaning the EU fans in general. I truly think that turnabout should be fair play on this. If he actually had the time to do it, and you have actually written anything, I think it would be only fair to have him dictate what should be going on in your world. Too far? Well, that’s precisely what’s being done here. Politely to be sure, but this is the first polite way I’ve read about since I started watching Clone Wars. Most people just go straight for the “He’s ruining my childhood!” stance.
I’m going to say this again and as many times as it takes to sink in: the stories you want may not be in canon, but they’re not destroyed forever either. No one has come and stolen or burned down your collection of merchandise.
I don’t get what’s so difficult about the concept. And don’t send a rebuttle saying that these EU’s killed the franchises. What killed Star Trek on TV was the ever growing problem of it not being enough like Star Trek. Give it time, it’ll come back around. Doctor Who, it was getting weaker and weaker writing through it’s final seasons in its original run. Books, audios, comics and the fans kept the memory alive. It’s back in full force, and guess what? It’s progressing just fine, even though the 8th Doctor’s ONE appearance was a movie on FOX that wasn’t all that impressive. Yet, thanks to the out of canon appearances in Big Finish Audios, he’s one of my favorite Doctors.
Getting back onto Star Wars, and for the final thought, leave the man to tell his story. When it’s all over and done with, enjoy what’s on screen for what it is. If it’s not up to spec with the EU, then read the EU materials and be happy you got ’em. They serve the one purpose that everyone’s seemigly forgetting; ENJOY THEM! Anymore, it seems like all anyone does is read them so they can harp on what else has been overwritten in Clone Wars. That’s not enjoyment, that’s looking for a fight.
As one who has also spent his hard-earned money on George’s playground, let me respond. I appreciate the passion of the fans. As one myself, I’ve certainly felt my blood boil over little things. Canon happens. George has made his position very clear right from the beginning. For some reason, Star Wars fans are the ONLY fans that don’t seem to understand that the books, comics, etc. that make up the EU aren’t “official canon.” Licensed, yes, but not necessarily his version of the story. Star Trek fans have dealt with that sort of thing for years; Doctor Who fans, a little longer still, and so on. Both franchises died, not because of the EU properties, but because the storytelling at the official canon level dropped off dramatically. I’m sure that’s what Star Wars fans are thinking is happening at the George level. It’s a fear that must be addressed.
The EU is beholden to make itself fit with George’s version, not the other way around, and for the most part it does that with the official canon in place at the time. We have new information now. George has been consistent with the portions he puts out there. There are parts of the EU he likes, as you point out; he drops them in where they fit with the story he’s telling as a nod to the fans. And there are a great many parts he’s virtually unaware of. It’s ludicrous to believe he keeps up with it all, especially now with the amount of material there is. It’s even more unbelievable to think that he should hold a conference with everyone involved to reveal his plot points before he’s ready to tell a given story. Yes, there are a lot of great stories out there. I won’t say that George’s version is “better” or that he can do no wrong. He’s as human as the rest of it. I’m simply saying it’s his world that he allows others to play in. George isn’t trying to pull an Order 66 on these tales; he’s just trying to tell his story. His story, like any other, goes through revisions from time to time. Just because he planned another trilogy or two originally doesn’t mean much. His ideas become canon when they are released in an official manner. The ending to Return of the Jedi eliminated the story for those extra trilogies. In regards to the EU, same thing applies. If he can overwrite his own ideas, he can certainly overwrite a contracted writer. Could he maybe spend the 5 minutes on Wookieepedia to fact check? Probably, but if you were in George’s seat, would you have the time or inclination to fact check every little thing? When those stories don’t fit, call it for what it is: an alternate universe. It doesn’t negate their richness or our enjoyment. It just means that we the fans are getting official answers to questions that may or may not have been addressed before by the EU. There’s no reason to put the handcuffs on the Maker. Back in the Marvel days, there was a substantially lesser amount of Star Wars to keep up with. If anything, maybe the EU needs to tighten the reigns in again so that it can be better managed. I know there’s been some fan discussion about there being a reboot of the EU. Ask the Silver Age DC fans how they felt about the Crisis on Infinite Earths. No matter the solution, someone will walk away angry. The writers involved are professionals, and as such they are aware that in work-for-hire contracts such as this, their version isn’t canon. An extension of the story, yes, but officially licensed doesn’t mean “part of the official timeline.” Karen Traviss is probably the biggest casualty of that, but everyone’s taking it too personally. Her work is still there to enjoy. The EU fans are just going nuts over something that every other franchise has dealt with. This, like anything else, will become a long term oddity and footnote within the saga’s rich history.
I completely agree with Black Adam and Vader Fan on this one, and I am nowhere near as big of a Star Wars fan as they are. So I will keep this short as I am not as versed on the subject or as eloquent a writer. I in fact rag on George all the time for re-releasing the movies. Like his latest endeavor to put them out in 3-D, I just don’t care. I’d much rather have George spend the time, money, and effort to give us 3 more movies. All that said though, it comes down to one simple thing:
The Galaxy Far Far Away is George’s Toybox, he may let others play with his toys, but when all is said and done they are still his toys and what he says is the law.
I’m not sure what the problem with some Star Wars fans is. All the other Fandoms out there seem to get this concept (Doctor Who, Star Trek, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, Farscape, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Buck Rogers, Batman, Superman, the list goes on and on), it only seems to be Star Wars fans that have a problem with this concept. The Books are a different Continuity/Canon from the Movies and TV Shows, enjoy them for what they are and get on with your lives.
To put it in a kinder way, do you really want the Droids and Ewok animated series locked into the canon of the Movies and the EU?
The Droids and Ewoks series ARE part of the canon of the EU (though the latter from a “certain point of view” since they were written for children), and most fans are cool with that because that’s the policy SW and LFL took from the beginning. Stories mattered; they had validity. That’s the universe SW fans bought into, and it made it special amongst most of the others out there, whose corporate owners didn’t care enough about them to give them the basic ingredient in a series: a believable history. That’s why SW fans are taking what’s been going on after 34 years personally.
There wouldn’t be a problem as much if LFL put the EU as an alternate universe, but that’s not how it works. Jedi Master Even Piell’s death in the recent CW episode renders his later death in Michael Reaves’ earlier book incongruous. So, it’s not like the EU can go on its merry way pretending the episode didn’t happen. Karen Traviss’ loss meant that her stories and characters are left on a cliffhanger. So, it DOES affect fans’ enjoyment of the EU, even if they wanted to ignore the animated series.
Fans of any media, and especially literature, can be passionate about the works they’ve invested. To sit there and say “we don’t know what’s wrong with SW fans” is frankly absurd. You cite other franchises as if those fans are a separate race who just shrug their shoulders and plop down another $25.00 for the next book or graphic novel like mindless lemmings. That wasn’t the case with ST fans who left in droves after what Richard Arnold did to the comics and novels. I used to manage a comic book store, and that wasn’t the case with a lot of FORMER fans of Marvel and DC. Classic BSG fans have been pissed off for years that Larson sold out and did Galactic 1980, and that the books and comics of that universe never had a proper conclusion. New BSG fans are hotly divided as to what Eik and Moore did with the finale and final season, failing to answer half the questions he raised. Same for Lost fans. For the fans who felt betrayed, those earlier episodes are “destroyed” for them, even though they had once enjoyed them, because the conclusions of those two series showed that they meant nothing. They were either stupid red herrings or unanswered questions that had no relevance.
In SW, if something is radically rewritten, it renders the stories about them as having not happened, then, unless it’s fixed later on (which can happen) they are essentially “destroyed,” as are the books/comics connected to them. Since the EU was set up as an interlocking web, then it affects a large portion of stories.
Yeah, that’s going to piss off a lot of people. If you can get past that and say, ‘fine with me,’ that’s great. No one’s trying to say you need to be upset. But if you do, why should you be told that you shouldn’t? Why should you be told that you — as a customer — shouldn’t voice your opinion and suggestion to the person you’ve been financially supporting for years? Should we all take a nonchalant, apathetic attitude towards everything in life? Being a proactive, aware fan can lead to being a proactive, aware citizen (civic, national or global). Speaking up to cry foul over an artist’s bad decision can lead to speaking up to cry foul over a politician’s or corporate leader’s bad decision.
What is the core message of the classic SW trilogy? To stand up against an injust Empire. If fans are doing that very thing, then they’ve actually learned from the moral of the story. This petition — because it is polite and peaceful — should be encouraged, not disparaged, because it represents microcosmically the kind of citizen that’s knowledgable, concerned, forthright, honest and engaged, and who are the kind of people that keep Empires from taking too much advantage of those who would put their heads in the sand (or in their consoles and TVs).
Yes, stories matter, both to writer and to those who enjoy them. It doesn’t change the fact that the EU is not and never has been considered primary canon. For some reason, fans that can separate this out in other franchises can’t or won’t do so for Star Wars. The wish to make it all primary canon doesn’t make it so. George is telling primary canon. All else are just stories – tall tales, misdirections, exaggerated reports, etc – that may or may not happen within the larger scope.
There’s a certain irony to claiming George is the unjust Empire. If anything, he’s the New Republic you enjoy so much in the EU. The studio system was the Empire. To present claims is one thing. To present it as if he’s this vicious Sith Lord… that’s just twisted. That any fan could believe him to be something like that, that’s beyond disrespectful. Let’s try to maintain some perspective here. It’s a good man with a larger view of his own entertainment that has given smiles to 3 generations of fans, not a civil and moral undertaking to fight the next Reich.
Let me put an end to the Karen Traviss thing. Actually, let me change that statement. Let Karen Traviss put an end to the Karen Traviss thing.
http://www.karentraviss.com/html/Movingon.htm
That’s from her personal blog about things that happened in Star Wars. I think she explained herself very well on this. There’s no more on that subject need be had.
Again with the, “it’s all been destroyed” talk. My question, do you have the novels and/or comics? That says they’re not destroyed. Unless you or someone else physically destroys the material in some form or fashion, is it truly gone forever. Then who’s being the Empire?
Traviss states outright that when you’re writing licensed material, you stick with the presented canon, try not to veer off too far in left field, but it’s an inevitability that things will change. That’s what happened here. There’s no other ways to put this. Lucas is telling HIS story. The EU are story BASED on HIS story. That’s it! Slice it, dice it, put any spin you want on it! There is zero, zip, zilch, nada, uh-uh, no, you don’t get a lousy box of macaroni way you will ever change it! Star Wars is his baby. His responsibility to it is to tell the stories he wants to tell. You enjoyed the EU stories more? FINE! READ THEM!!! Will they not continue with the storyline as it’s now been rendered moot by continuity? Fine! Ask LucasFilm or whatever publishing body needs to read it to find some way to continue on with the story. Give them some sort of rational request to deal with. They’ve done Star Wars Infinities, tell them to slap a label on the novels now and let ’em run if it’s going to be that hung up on it! Don’t tell the creator of a story to change the way he wants to tell it! You don’t like it, don’t watch!
It’s still so funny to me that you’re so willing to call George Lucas the Empire. Regardless of how nice this petition is, I’ll say again that this is the first time I’ve ever seen it this polite. Mostly people are badmouthing the guy on the official website. Telling everyone that Lucas, Filoni, and everyone involved with the prequels and now Clone Wars are ruining everything that they loved. You know what? You want to talk about messages? We’re spreading the word of Star Wars and all the positives that it has brought. You’re going around saying that it’s forerunner is this destructive force that needs to be reigned in. Sorry, who’s spreading the word of the Dark Side again?
That’s being a little dramatic (which is what you guys accuse us of being). Lucas HIMSELF said he had his own empire now, which he admitted was a little odd.
Lucas is not the devil, but he’s no angel either. Fans can’t seem to realize that either pole is wrong. You guys appear to be taking the latter view, and it ignores the myths he’s perpetrated over the years as to how Star Wars came about, who the visionaries (plural) were that helped created it, and just what his vision was (6 films? 9? 12? Vader’s saga all along?) I strongly suggest reading Kaminsky’s The Secret History of Star Wars, as well as Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars and The Making of The Empire Strikes Back books to arrive at a balanced view of him as a man and filmmaker.
Part of that balanced view is understanding the real history of the EU, that it was always intended as a legitimate extension of his films, the stories he couldn’t tell, but the ones that occurred before, during and after his films. Until you recognize that fact — that Lucas has yet again changed his public story about — (and the old articles are there, showing where Roy Thomas talks about how Lucas, Lippencott and Roffman sat down with him to discuss where the story could go; how Lucas set up Lucasfilm to ensure the story content and quality; how he personally answered questions about the nature of the Force, the Jedi and Sith; how he nixed certain storylines and suggested others) you won’t understand that to contradict the EU is no different than contradicting the films (which, of course, he’s done), because for 30 years, the two were aspects of the same saga, told through different mediums.
All the petition is saying, at any rate, is to do things the way he had done them for three decades. No one’s asking him to curb his “vision” (and let’s get past the myth, ok? He makes it up as he goes along.) All people are asking is that Lucasfilm has the ability to provide retcons, and that means greater communication between him and them, and perhaps a bit more manpower over there so that they can stay on top of things. Retcon is the duct-tape that holds the universe together, and it works great to even generate new stories. But with the current state of things, too many contradictions are coming in too fast to handle, and it ruins the necessary believability factor for most people (who invested in all the books and comics not just because the stories were great, but because they’re a single, unfolding saga). The petitioners are only saying “This is easily fixed. What worked for so long can still work now”
I’ve read all the books you list and more besides. This is what being a fan is all about. A fan also knows when George is using his dry sense of humor, such as when he points out that he’s become the Empire. It’s called a joke. Part of the balanced view, as you say, is understanding real history. In doing so you’d know that GL accepted from the beginning that other stories COULD be told that have nothing to do with what he put down. The EU has never been a true extension of the films at all. It’s simply a collection of other tales in the same universe, and it’s all put out there as part of the merchandising machine that kept Star Wars afloat in the early days, just like the toys, just like the shirts, etc. This is what EU fans refuse to accept across the board, and what you’re refusing to accept here by your own admission. When in doubt, read the quotes directly on how the EU developed.
Let’s spin it another way from the opposite direction. Let’s say for a silly moment that Tolkien never died and history kept on just as it has otherwise. Here’s the petition. “Dear Mr. Tolkien. We love what you’ve done with Middle Earth. Mr. Jackson, however, has made it widespread and accessible to a new set of fans. We’d like you to write the next Middle Earth book more in line with what Jackson envisioned on the screen as it makes more sense to us than what you wrote. Thanks for your understanding. Sincerely, your “fans.”
See how bad that sounds? You can name drop all you like, it doesn’t change the fact that George has been consistent with his universe, even if his explanations of how he got there change year to year. He’s not a historian, he’s a storyteller. Nobody’s questioning the contributions of anyone else, on the films or in the EU. We’re simply staying on point with this, and that point is to say it’s George’s world, his creation. They were his notes first, they’re his property to this day. What he says goes. The story he’s told with it is cohesive. It’s the EU — being a lower level of canon, a parallel timeline, or however you want to refer to it — that must bow to him, not the other way around, and ALL of the EU writers know it and accept it before they ever put pen to paper. Read their stories, read their blogs, enjoy them. That’s what they’re there for. The petition is disrespectful. It’s ludicrous in its belief that anyone at Lucasfilm will ever listen to it, let alone read it, and “fans” who back this thing should be ashamed. The story still works. Just get it out of your head that the EU is top level canon. It’s not. It never has been. It never will be. As we’ve said before, every other franchise has figured this out. It’s time Star Wars fandom got the memo. Based on responses I’m hearing at the Force Cast, it sounds like it has. It’s merely a vocal minority that can’t live with the truth.
Again, I’ll say this, and it will be the last time because we’re going in circles here. The EU stories are still there for everyone to enjoy. If you don’t like something, vote with your dollar.
An update for this thread. To hear the difinitive answer regarding the death of Jedi Master Piell (which led to this petition in the first place), look no further than the April 15, 2011 episode of the Force Cast. Dave Filoni is interviewed regarding the 2nd half of Clone Wars season 3. I’m sure people will still hear what they want to hear, but the topic is directly addressed both as a fanboy and as a Lucasfilm creator.
Nothing more need be said from either side of “camp fanboy” as far as I’m concerned.